Sir-Toby.Com

Well I think we should all make a collaborative effort to fill up all the empty links leading from 'Level Six'. (See the Story Tree)

It's just to make the game better some of the earlier links should be filled up to lead to more possibilites.

Sounds good. But trying to extend unused options to "fill up" a particular level will be practically impossible with almost every episode tagged with "add new option". While the "add new option" can be a good thing, it can (and has) been abused.

If I can spare some time I'll look at the episodes & options you're looking at. I'll see if something jumps out at me.

Although to be honest, I'm mostly a reader now and not much of a contributor.

Whoa! It's Wolfrun *bows*

Yeah. Your website is a very big help.

Some of those options may have never been taken for a very good reason, in that either the option itself or the episode that it came from did not make much sense.

Indeed. Actually, the majority of episodes are just the 'ranma/ranko' ones. I have never seen an episode of the anime, nor do I know much about it either.

I'll have a proper look through the untaken options tomorrow to see if there's anything to interest me. If it revives long dormant threads, then I'm all for it.

WolfRun wrote:Sounds good. But trying to extend unused options to "fill up" a particular level will be practically impossible with almost every episode tagged with "add new option". While the "add new option" can be a good thing, it can (and has) been abused.

I've occasionally gone through episodes at low levels in the story tree and disabled the 'add new option' ability for just this reason. A while ago I would occasionally try to create episodes to fill out low levels of the story tree and would then disable the 'add new option' ability to prevent any more options from being created at that level. If people are willing to fill out low levels of the story tree, I would be willing to disable that option for the appropriate episodes to keep the level full.

I can't see anything to be gained from "filling" a level, except in the "stamp collector" sense of knowing that you have all the stamps in a particular series, which doesn't seem to me to be a compelling reason. It's always possible that someone will get a good idea for extending an early episode in a previously unanticipated direction, and it would be a pity if the disabling of Add New Option was to prevent them from doing so.

While I see how some people may not care for "filling" a level, I can certainly see the appeal in it, as I did it myself for a while many moons ago. I won't guess at what is the motivation for everyone who visits Sir-Toby.Com and participates in the stories here. I imagine the reasons for visiting are unique to each person. I'd like to encourage everyone to participate in the stories at Sir-Toby.Com as fits their desire.

As to the question of disabling the 'add new option' feature in low-level episodes, I have mixed feelings about this. When I first added the 'add new option' feature, I was originally intending it to be used in special cases, only to be enabled on a handful of episodes where having the ability to add a new option made sense given the context of the episode. I certainly never imagined it to be used on almost every episode, as it seems to be now. That's not saying that I disapprove of its current use. It certainly has proved useful in working around sabotage, and allowing authors an option to continue a story arc in a different direction if the only available option went down a direction that the original author hadn't intended.

JH, I can see where you are coming from where someone may have a good idea for extending an early episode. On the other hand, I've visited similar sites, and ran into one (not running Extend-A-Story) that allowed anyone to add a new option to any episode any time. What happened is that the first episode had literally hundreds of options leading from it. Of those, only the first few actually went anywhere interesting, and then they all had dozens of options off of them, most of which went nowhere. It was a very frustrating experience for someone trying to read the story since you would run into an empty episode almost immediately. I'm thankful that I didn't enable 'add new option' on any of the original NEQ episodes, as this prevents NEQ from running into a similar fate.

Just so everyone knows, at one point I did go through all episodes in level 4 and disable the 'add new option' feature. I did this partially because I had taken some effort to "fill" level 5, and didn't want to see new empty episodes showing up there. However, I also noticed that some of the episodes in level 4, particularly episode 16, seemed to be suffering from having too many options that weren't going anywhere. I also see that some episodes in level 5 are heading this direction.

This all being said, this is a community driven site, and I'm here to help support what the community wants to get out of it. This is just my personal opinion. If people wish to leave things as they are, I would support that. However, if people wish to disable 'add new option' in low-level episodes to facilitate "filling" levels, or whatever purpose suits them, I would support that as well.

I can't see anything to be gained from "filling" a level, except in the "stamp collector" sense of knowing that you have all the stamps in a particular series - JH

But what’s wrong with that?

I won't guess at what is the motivation for everyone who visits Sir-Toby.Com and participates in the stories here. - Sir Toby

Personally, I'm here to read and write "stories" (although admittedly for a very long time now I've been more of a ghost of someone long departed than an actual living breathing participant). Episodes that do nothing but create lists of options (which many times lead to just more lists of options) really annoy me. Episodes that completely break the mood, theme, or plot of the parent episode or storyline really annoy me. Episodes that read like they were written by someone high on Nyquil really annoy me (unless, admittedly, I'm high on Nyquil myself which, I can assure you, is not very often).

And the point of mentioning this (besides answering Sir Toby's obliquely raised question above) is to respond to JH's contention that there is nothing to be gained by "filling up" a level, and to deal with the closely related issue of the advantages/disadvantages of the Add New Option function which directly affects said "filling up". Simply put, I believe that the very structure that an Addventure uses will either facilitate or hamper the coming together of people to collaborate on writing stories and creating storylines. And the Add New Option function is definitely a deterant in this regard.

As Sir Toby pointed out regarding the other Addventure site he'd visited, too many options branching off of a parent episode will normally lead to a vast multitude of short-lived threads that lead to nowhere in particular. And that will discourage people from exploring the Addventure and adding to it. Now of course this can happen to any Addventure no matter what, but my argument is that having the open-ended ability to add more and more options to any particular episode (overloading it as with Episode 16) increases dramatically the probability of this kind of stagnating situation coming about. Whereas, with limited options available, a contributor is much more likely to find a storyline that is of interest quite quickly and with just a few simple clicks of the mouse. Or maybe he won't. But my point is that at least we know he won't get lost in a swamp of endless choices in which the possibility of finding a really good story that he likes becomes a haphazard prospect at best and almost impossible at worst.

And moreover, I believe that large numbers of options (and most definitely when unlimited numbers of options are available) actively encourage some writers to add crap episodes (which not only compete with "good" storylines but can also crowd them out until they get completely lost in the above mentioned swamp). Certainly these writers won't feel any hesitation to add crap based on the worry of "ruining" a storyline because, hey, other people can just add-on their own option and go around the crap episode. (And yes, I know that using the term "crap episode" is a subjective and judgmental thing to do, but that makes it no less valid and true based on the fact that I'm here to read and write stories with plots and characters and all that fun stuff and not just scribble down my latest brain-fart of inspiration.) And so, since I believe that the "Add New Episode" function will actually increase the probability of crap episodes, then limiting the number of options available will naturally decrease the probability of crap episodes.

In addition, if people are limited to actually adding to an episode's existing options (going down to the next level) instead of adding new options (branching across the existing level), I think the quality of writing will improve because writers will (or at least should) have to deal with the actual direction of the storyline (or at least the direction of the available option) instead of just throwing it out the window to go in a completely different direction with their own option.

So there you are JH, two arguments for what might be gained if a level were to be filled up and if the Add New Option was removed or at least restricted somewhat., ie. that the creation of actual storylines will become more likely and the creation of crap will more than likely decrease.

And, as should be clear by now Sir Toby, I for one agree, support and salute you for deleting that function from certain episodes of the game.

Now, in case some people feel offended by my opinion, let me add that (while I personally could live with the Add New Option function permanently disabled and, while we're at it, limiting the number of options available to a maximum of only 3) I understand and respect that other people enjoy its use and I don't begrudge them that (unless of course it involves crap ) And furthermore, that I am also in agreement with Sir Toby that there are and will be special cases where having the ability to add a new option makes sense. So I'm not advocating its total removal. I'm only arguing that, when you look at the Story Tree and see that level 6 has 144 episodes, level 7 has 389 episodes, level 8 has 513 episodes, level 13 has 962 episodes and so on, and that the number of unused options originating from these levels begin to light up like a horde of red army ants, it is a good thing to stop the creation of still more episodes for that particular level.

Oh, and another thing. For those of you who will defend crap episodes as fantastic frolicsome fun, I'm not going to argue with you. As I stated from the start, my judgment of episode quality is based solely on my personal desire for stories and storylines. That's what I want. Your personal desire may very well be for something else entirely. And since I don't own NEQ, I'm not going to try to dictate policy here. But really, do there have to be so many disjointed, nonsensical, and quite honestly pointless episodes with unnecessarily large numbers of repetitively recurring options about Wal-Mart, cheese, and farts? (And yes, what I'm refering to also includes most of the episodes starring Josh Burbank & Scott Chen). Can't just one or two suffice?

And lastly,

It's always possible that someone will get a good idea for extending an early episode in a previously unanticipated direction - JH

I don’t buy this argument. Of course it's possible, but if a person has a really good idea for a new direction in a storyline, they should be able to work it in at almost any point of the story and not just that one episode that Sir Toby just happened to delete “Add New Option” from. It might be more convenient if they could just add it in as a new option, but it most certainly isn't world-shattering if they can't (especially since, in so many cases, if they can't add their idea later in the story they can usually go back to a previous episode in the thread to add it in with little or no difficulty.)

Yours respectfully (and honestly, I mean what I'm saying with all due respect),

WolfRun

Well, adding links is a problem. I mean, if you go to the story tree, I watch the episodes go:

1... 1... 2... 4... 8.... so I thought, okay, it might be 16, but at this point, people have probably made multiple links... 36!?... 187?!!

As regards the quality of episodes, I think that different people want very different things from the story. As long as people don't introduce "zaniness" in such a way as to spoil a "serious" thread, I don't have a problem with it. With potentially an infinite story-space, there should be room for all types of story. I should be sorry if Lots42 was to get the idea that he was not welcome.

I know that Add New Option has sometimes been abused, notably in episode 16, but it has also been used to good effect in various places. One other legitimate use that is worth mentioning is when somebody writes from the option that you yourself were about to take.

My instinct is to place as few restrictions on our writers as possible, so long as they remain within the Guidelines.

Just a thought. Might it be a good idea to start a separate story somewhat in the spirit of the defunct Horsehockey, where silliness would be not just tolerated but demanded? It could be called something like "Scott and Josh: The New Addventure". I'm assuming that it would be no more work for Sir Toby to run three stories than to run the current two.

I think -demanding- silliness in a game would generate performance anxiety. There are several wonderfully serious storylines in Addventure, Horsehockey and yes, NEQ, concerning Josh and Scott.

JH wrote:Might it be a good idea to start a separate story somewhat in the spirit of the defunct Horsehockey, where silliness would be not just tolerated but demanded? It could be called something like "Scott and Josh: The New Addventure".

Lots42 (in response) wrote:I think -demanding- silliness in a game would generate performance anxiety. There are several wonderfully serious storylines in Addventure, Horsehockey and yes, NEQ, concerning Josh and Scott.

I agree with Lots42 here. "Demanding" silliness seems to be too strong. However, a seperate story where silliness is encouraged might be workable. But then again, one may argue that there is a place for silliness along with seriousness in NEQ. As long as the serious episodes stay on their side of the line, and the silly episodes stay on their side of the line, we won't have to turn the car around and go home...

Seriously though... If adding another story to Sir-Toby.Com will serve some need that people want, I'd be happy to oblige. I'd hesitate to lay down a rule along the lines of "serious episodes go to this story and silly episodes go to this story", but if that is what people want, I can go along with it. Perhaps a "silliness encouraged" story would be just what we need around here, providing a good place for silliness, without having to lay down hard and fast rules regarding it.

JH wrote:I'm assuming that it would be no more work for Sir Toby to run three stories than to run the current two.

Quite correct. There would be some minor administrative work to create the database and web folder for the story. Most of the work would be coming up with a start for the story. Once the story is created, there is not much effort, beyond moderating the story, to maintain it.