Astra's sister

[Frank]

In Episode 88679, I introduced a sister for Astra (following the suit of a Hindu name starting with A, I named her Agra). This was mainly to avoid having to think of names for the other children in her "class", or to have to look through all the threads for characters that could have conceivably have shared their childhood with Astra in her palace.

The question is, does anyone remember an episode where Astra is implied to be an only child? If so, I'll have to look to create a branch where something particularly nasty happens to Agra.

[Anableps]

I think that Astra's family members depend on which part of the story you are in, and are not described in the first episodes where Astra appears.

I do know that one of the story lines that I am working with, JH introduced her sisters as Brenda and Carola in 86785, so she would be the oldest of three. Those two are introduced in 4663. In most of the stories that I have worked on where Astra's family comes into play, she is a niece of the Queen, and not the daughter, so she has more freedom to go adventuring.

[Frank]

That's interesting, I had thought the topic of Astra's family had been avoided everywhere but the threads where she ends up getting married.

Astra's age is given somewhere (I believe it's when she's introduced) as in her early twenties. Assuming she's 21 when the story starts, and letting her age in my "childhood" thread be 7, that would mean Belinda is 4 at the time, and Carola is zero. This isn't bad because it means they are too young to be in school with Astra, which would mean Agra is older than Belinda but younger than Astra. I might do something with Carola's birth, if I ever get far enough... just need to think on how to flow into it.

All I need to do now is find an explanation for why, when the dragon captures her sisters in the "future", she omits Agra... maybe she was just out of town that day? The good thing about this is that It would be addressed in the thread started by episode 88649 instead of the one about her childhood. Or does that not sound convincing enough?

[JH]

I suspect that trying to introduce consistency between a whole load of inconsistent threads is all but impossible. I think that in some threads Astra is the eldest child, in others she isn't the eldest and so is not heir to the throne (and thus has more leeway to go off adventuring), in a few she may be the only child. I didn't recall the thread where she's the Queen's niece rather than her daughter; I think that's only specified in a small minority. The name of the Queen varies, though Maia is the commonest. The number and names of Astra's sisters also varies, though Belinda and Carola is commonest (in 6190 I gave her a single sister instead called Alexandra). So does Astra'a age, though early twenties is commonest. In at least one thread, Astra has a brother called Alex (who gets turned by magic into a girl). In many threads, we don't learn anything about possible siblings at all.

[Hi! My name is Ib!]

NEQ has many consistent players and themes and histories, ect. But every thread is different.

You'll give yourself a headache, Frank, if you try to remain true to EVERY thread. Although quite a noble effort on your part, and I applaud the effort.

Consistency between threads is all but impossible. It is fun to bring in SOME sort of consistency, though.

For instance, in almost every storyline where the nation of Hespan is mentioned, it is Allaria's biggest enemy. Almost without fail. That doesn't mean you have to keep it that way. Hell, you don't even have to call it Hespan.

Aqualaria is shrouded in a little more mystery. In some threads it's at war with Allaria, in other threads it's allied (although not staunchly).

In most it's so geographically isolated that there really isn't much of a relationship between the two nations. Rumors abound - the legendary 'warrior women' of Aqualaria (aka Amazons) are feared and whispered about. 'The Barrier of the Queens', an inexplicable wall of crashing waves and whirlpools that surrounds the coast of Aqualaria, keep sailors from the north from reaching her shores and the Shreken Mountains are all but impassable.

Astra's mom has gone by all sorts of names; Heliastra, Maia, ect.

In most cases she's the eldest daughter of the Queen, however.

So there's an underlying 'backbone' of 'truth' that seems to run through every storyline. Doesn't mean it's strict or rigid, though.

[Frank]

Well, it's like I said here. I want to put in this branch of the story all the things that are mentioned in other branches, which are even remotely related to "when Astra was little."

In regards to the family, it means working all the sibilings into the story at some point. I was hoping not to find incompatible potential sibilings, so I just need to fit them into each other, and I'm starting with the age. I am aware that what I do or don't do with them may directly contradict some threads, I'm not trying to remain true to any particular one. For instance, I might put both Alexander and Alexandra and have both of them be referred to as Alex, just for the sake of having a funny moment when someone yells "Alex, come here!"

The question now is, is Alexandra older or younger than Belinda? Belinda's age is given as 18, and Alexandra's age (or at least what it was when the story began) is left ambiguous as being either 18 or 20 (maybe I should average it out to 19, which would mean she's 5? That would make her 1 year younger than Agra, so I would have to put her in the position of "I'm so excited! I'm starting school next year!")

I tried to find Alex's age (reading backwards from 29469, which i got by Googling "site:sir-toby.com Astra brother Alex") but the best thing I got was:

Mom & Dad liked her best, and because she was a girl she was revered and trained to be the next ruler of Aqualaria, while I had to care for the animals and do housework.

[JH]

One other inconsistency is that some threads have "Aqualaria" snf others have "Aquilaria". Apparently in Shakespeare's time in our own universe they didn't bother much about consistency of spelling, and I like to think that the scribes of our fantasy universe, whose records we are notionally basing our stories on, had a similar relaxed view about spelling.

[Frank]

Aqualaria is a fine name for a coastal nation, and was the original name given ("Not by the maps of Aqualaria." 38) but Aquilaria, I think, became established as the valid name due to episodes like 25022 where Fred and Astra argue the differences between their nations. I think people got confused by the following:

• Allaria and Aqu'laria are two border nations
• In Spanish, Alla means "there" and Aquí means "here"
• What better name for two fictional neighboring countries than "the land of what's there" and "the land of what's here"?

Of course, this theory pretty much falls apart when putting "Aquilaria" into the NEQ search: the first result is from July 1999 (episode 237) and episode 25022 was not written until 2004.

Taking your theory of "in Shakesperian times people didn't care much for spelling names", the "misspellings" of names from that time are mostly because they were trying to put into their own alphabet the name so that it would still be sounded-out correctly, and then other languages took this misspelling as the correct spelling. So, apparently, at least one of the duchies in at least one of the kingdoms speaks Spanish.

[JH]

My own impression is that "Aqualaria" appears more commonly than "Aquilaria", but I could easily be wrong.

I've always assumed that Hespan was loosely based on Spain.

[Anableps]

The changes in spellings over time, and rate of inconsistency within a given time, is an interesting topic. Samuel Johnson's dictionary was not published until 1755. Try reading a really old copy of Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire, or the uncorrected spelling of the original journals of Lewis and Clark, and you can appreciate how variations in spelling even among the educated were the rule even up to 1800. Today's editions usually have the odd spellings changed to make them easier to read.

Isaac Asimov had an interesting take on Shakespeare's effect on the language. This discussion brought it back to mind, and I looked it up. Here it is.

"Indeed, so important are Shakespeare's works that only the Bible can compare with them in their influence upon our language and thought. Shakespeare has said so many things so supremely well that we are forever finding ourselves thinking in his terms.

I have a feeling that Shakespeare has even acted as a brake on the development of English... after three and a half centuries, Shakepeare's plays can be read quite easily and with only an occasional archiac word or phrase requiring translation. It is almost as though the English language dare not change... so much as to render Shakespeare incomprehensible. That would be an unacceptable price to pay for change.

In this respect, Shakespeare is even more important than the Bible. The King James version of the Bible is, of course, only a translation, although a supremely great one. If it becomes archaic there is nothing to prevent newer translations into more modern English. Indeed, such newer translations exist.

How, though, can anyone ever dream of 'translating' Shakespeare into 'modern English'?"

[Frank]

The 1800's saw the rise of telecomunications, so, in a sense, spelling difference were tolleratable before then, but not after. Shakespere was way before the 1800; his Wikipedia article says he started writing in 1589. However, the spelling he used in his work is still considered acceptable. Just 32 years prior, the equals sign was defined thus:

...to auoide the tediouſe repetition of theſe woordes : is equalle to : I will ſette as I doe often in woorke vſe, a paire of paralleles, or Gemowe lines of one lengthe, thus: =, bicauſe noe .2. thynges, can be moare equalle.

This looks horribly misspelled by modern standards.

I've always assumed that Hespan was loosely based on Spain.

Ah, yes, the name does suggest a hispanic origin, doesn't it?

but we're getting off topic. I came here to say, for the record, what I've decided for Astra's sibilings. For starters, I've thought that if Aquilaria is famous for its warriors, it must have been through a lot of wars, and hence have conquered many "lands". So why not let each conquered land be a princedom (princessdom?), and let it be administered by a sibiling?

1. Alexander: The firstborn (Aged 30 when the story starts, 16 in Astra's childhood thread to be 6 years older than Astra)
   He has a hard life because, despite being the oldest, he can't be king nor get any land: Aquilaria is a matriarchy. In the future, it will be decided Alex has to go find Astra, when she's sent to kill the dragon.
2. Astra: The heir to the throne (Aged 24 when the story starts, 10 in the childhood thread to let Anina's potential death occur before the year ends, though Astra's age may vary)
   When in the future Belinda and Carola are kidnapped and they realize it was the dragon, Astra is sent to get them back at any cost.
3. Agra: Future Ruler of the lands of the 6th conquest (Aged 23 when the story starts, 9 in the childhood thread, to be 1 year younger than Astra and allow her to attend classes with her)
   She's out of town with Alexandra in the future when Belinda and Carola are kidnapped
4. Alexandra: Future Ruler of the lands of the 5th conquest (Aged 19 when the story starts, 5 in the childhood thread, to be not old enough to go to school yet, but still older than Belinda)
   She's out of town and later when it's decided "Alex" will go find why Astra hasn't return, she goes.
5. Belinda: Future ruler of the lands of the 4th conquest (Aged 18 when the story starts, 4 in the childhood thread)
   Captured by the dragon in the future
6. Carola: Future ruler of the lands of the 3rd conquest (Aged 14 when the story starts, born in some of the branches of the childhood thread)
   Captured by the dragon in the future

The lands of the 1st and 2nd conquests are administered by their aunts (and in fact, there is some aunt, even if distantly related, administering these territories during the childhood thread). Sure, this is all open to criticism.

[JH]

I like that. Just one quibble: Would parents be likely to name one child Alexander and another Alexandra? It would seem to be a recipe for confusion.

Incidentally, my idea about the school is that it's a fairly new thing, set up by Astra's parents, who are enlightened by the standards of the times. Previous generations of princesses and princes were educated by governesses, but now a small school has been set up within the palace, attended by the children of palace courtiers as well as the royal children.

Regarding spelling, ISTR reading that Shakespear didn't even spell his own name consistently. Johnson's dictionary in the 18th century was I think the first really comprehensive and successful one, and once people started referring to dictionaries for words that thety weren't sure how to spell that would have had the effect of standardising spelling.

[Frank]

Hmm... palace courtiers. I'll have to remember that. I really hadn't given much thought to where the other children came from. I'm just wondering one thing: in the threads where Astra has children, do they go to school? Or do they always grow up away from any place that could possibly offer such luxuries?

Also, I think other threads mention a nursery (of course, a nursery does not imply a governess)

Would parents be likely to name one child Alexander and another Alexandra? It would seem to be a recipe for confusion.

You clearly do not know my uncle Thomas. He named his son Thomas and his daughter Tomasa (yes, a female form for Thomas does exist; the lack of an 'h' is because it's of Spanish origin). In an apparent act of defiance, my aunt refers to everyone by their middle name, never ever using "Tom".

[JH]

I think that in most of the threads where Astra has children (not that there are many of them), they are too young to go to school. It's possible that they would spend their time in a nursery when they were too young to go to school. The age of transition from nursery to school could be anywhere between five and ten or so. But as you point out, in some cases Astra and her family could live in too isolated a location for there to be enough other children in the neighbourhood to make a school practical. In that case the children might be taught by a governess, or Astra might even take on the job herself.

[Won-Tolla]

I like to think that the scribes of our fantasy universe, whose records we are notionally basing our stories on, had a similar relaxed view about spelling.

Hence the proliferation of gaurds and dargons.