The round has ended. Unfortunately it didn't go anywhere much. Luk Vandelaer is Judge and coWizard, Jesse Welton is also coWizard. I shall post a full round summary when I get around to it. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Rules: 143:1 Wizard Christian VALID -1.0 143:2 Jesse Welton VALID -1.0 143:3 Don Blaheta INVALID 0.0 143:4 Jared Sunshine INVALID -1.0 143:5 Jared Sunshine INVALID -3.0 143:6 Jared Sunshine VALID +3.0 143:7 Jared Sunshine VALID +1.0 143:8 Jesse Welton VALID +2.0 143:9 Luk Vandelaer VALID * +1.0 143:10 Jared Sunshine INVALID 0.0 143:11 david moses fruchter INVALID -2.0 143:12 Luk Vandelaer VALID 0.0 *: Originally judged INVALID ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Aron Wall wrote: > cleonhar@adpims.com wrote: > > > 143:1 > > >>>>> > > Any rule which does not cast a vote for FRC Poobah is invalid. This rule votes > > for Wizard Christian as Poobah. > > <<<<< > > -Wizard Christian > > > > -- > > Rule Date: 2000-07-24 20:13:10 GMT > > Validity: Verily > > Style: -1. > > I would like to point out that the theme is "A System of Government" and not "FRC > Politics". The two are somewhat different. What I want to see is an interesting > assortment of weird officials, rules, constitutions, the scheme of the > government. Instead I get a popularity contest, which has been done before in > previous rounds, in a suspiciously similar way to a previous round. This rule > contains at least one office, which is good, and the fact that the fantasy rule > committee is voting to fill this office, which is also good, but all of this is > introduced in a bland and done before sort of way. The first sentence implies > that elections will be going on for the entire round, which probably means that > we shall never actually *have* a Poobah. Voting for yourself was also oh so > stylish, but since we do not even know whether it is desirable to be the Poobah, > no marks down for this. This rule seems to have led the next rule astray as > well. All of this is redeemable--though not if the rules continue the trends of > these ones--so the wrath of the Judge contents itself with extracting a mere 1 > point from the Wizard's style score. > > The Judge. -- Rule Date: 2000-07-24 21:26:37 GMT ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jesse Welton wrote: > 143:2 > >>>> > > Rules may only vote for eligible players. No two consecutive rules > may vote for the same player. This rule votes for Jared Sunshine. > > >>>> > > -- > Rule Date: 2000-07-24 20:47:53 GMT Validity: The Judge finds this rule to be innocent of inconsistency with any of the regular ordinances, itself, or any previous fantasy rule. VALID. Style: As all of Jesse's rules, this one is sensible. But this is not enough, for in order to merit this Judge's favor, they must also go along with the theme. I don't see much which could properly be called part of a system of government, only technical constraints on a voting procedure for some political office whose duties and privileges we know nothing about. -1 Style points have been earned by this rule. The Judge. Note to players: "FRC Politics" is indeed the round which this one is so depressingly copying. It's round 102. Study it deeply and do something different, or if you don't want to do that, a small dose of creativity may help as well. If you have neither web access nor originality, peek at a book on the Republic of Rome or read the Constitution of the United States, and steal some rule ideas. These two notable Rupublican systems are both about ten thousand times more interesting than this round has been so far. Hurry up with your rules--I just can't bear the anxiety of not knowing who will be voted for next :-). The Judge -- Rule Date: 2000-07-24 21:47:39 GMT ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Don Blaheta wrote: > >>>> > The duties of the Poobah are myriad; among them are eir obligation to > keep copies of all rules for redistribution. Henceforth, rules must > accompany their votes with further elabouration of the Poobah's duties. > This rule is happy to let the Wizard have it: it votes for Christian. > >>>> Judgement: The issue being debated by the court is whether or not the Poobah's obligation to "keep copies of all rules for redistribution" contradicts the regular ordinances by overstepping the limitations which have been benevolently applied to fantasy rules by the wisdom of our founding fathers. I first ascertain that the rules being refered to in the first sentence are in fact FRC rules, and not something else (say statutes passed by a fantasy government), due to the lack of any other introduction of any kind of rules existing in the fantasy world, and the fact that it is followed up by another sentence in which the word "rule" clearly has the usual meaning. Anyway, the only way a fantasy rule can obligate a player to do anything is by invalidating fantasy rules. As far as I can see, a consequence of this rule is that the Poohbah may not decide to delete all the messages in their inbox and never post or redistribute rules. Therefore I rule that this rule oversteps its authority and shall be henceforth known and treated as INVALID. Style: 0 +1 for trying to make the Judge happy -1 for failing. The Judge -- Rule Date: 2000-07-25 01:52:13 GMT ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jared Sunshine wrote: > ------ BEGIN 143:4 ------ > This rule casts a vote for Anton Cox as FRC Poobah. > It also casts an additional 142 votes for Anton Cox as FRC Poobah. > > The FRC Poobah is only the Head of State, not the Head of Government. The > Head of Government is the Prime Minister, elected by the Parliament, which > consists of all FRC members who are not the FRC Poobah. > > Because of ancient traditions, the FRC Poobah may not post anything (other > than a request for permission to post) to the FRC forum without first > requesting and obtaining permission to post from the Prime Minister. > > As one of eir duties, the FRC Poobah must greet visitors and newcomers to > the FRC. If any person identifies eirself as a visitor or newcomer, the FRC > Poobah must privately email a greeting to that person. > > At any time, any member of Parliament may by posting call for a Vote of No > Confidence in Favor of X, where X is a member of Parliament who is not the > Prime Minister. All members of Parliament may cast one and only one vote by > posting their desire, either to remove or to affirm the Prime Minister; only > those votes posted within three days of the posting of the call for the Vote > of No Confidence may be considered cast. If more than half of the votes > cast call for the removal of the Prime Minister, the Prime Minister is no > longer considered Prime Minister, and instead X is considered the Prime > Minister. > > The Prime Minister is currently Jesse Welton. > > For the purposes of any rule following this, the FRC Poobah is the person or > persons who, not including any votes cast for FRC Poobah in that rule, has > (or have) accrued the most votes in eir favor as FRC Poobah. > > The only manner of changing the Prime Minister is via the Vote of No > Confidence described above. > > ------- END 143:4 ------- Validity: INVALID. This rule ought to die because it has transgressed against the regular ordinances on three counts: 1) It impudently asserts that it has the right to force the Poohbah to send a private email to a certain other person, which is not to be found on the limited list of those things that fantasy rules can do. 2) It impudently asserts that it has the right to force the Poohbah not to send email to the FRC forum, which it has no right to do. 3) It usurps the power of the Judge specified by R.O. 10, that the Judge has the right to decide the nature and location of the official committee forum. I, the Judge declare that, using the powers vested in me by the regular ordinances of the Fantasy Rule Committee, do hereby declare and interpret that part of the nature of the official committee forum is that every FRC member has the right to post in it. This court finds this rule guilty on all three charges. The sentence is invalidity. Style: -1 This court is also hearing the prosecution of Jared Sunshine for contempt of the regular ordinances. While the bits about a parliamentary procedure were interesting, we find that they are not original enough to excuse Jared for the invalidity of his rule. The Judge finds Jared guilty and fines him 1 Style point. Case dismissed! The Judge -- Rule Date: 2000-07-25 02:14:53 GMT ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jared Sunshine wrote: > ------ BEGIN 143:5 ------ > This sentence states that each sentence of all future rules must be > self-referential: Each sentence of all future rules must be > self-referential. > > This sentence suggests that the previous sentence's use of a colon to make > what is in effect a non-referential statement is somewhat suspect but remains > technically self-referential, though it does not arrogate to make a decision, > a power which of course belongs to the Judge. > > Moreover, this rule goes above and beyond the call of duty and itself > endeavors to be self-referential in every one of its sentences in order to > set a good example for the rules to come. > > This sentence explains how anthropomorphizing rules and sentences with > intents and purposes helps to make self-referential sentences > comprehensible. > > This rule votes for Jeremy Selengut as FRC Poobah. > > This sentence opines that the last sentence was rather boring. > > This sentence opines that the previous sentence is rather hypocritical for > calling a sentence rather boring while it itself is rather boring. > > This rule observes that this rule is not very salient to the theme which > Judge Wall established, and therefore does not expect to receive very many > style point. > > This rule is suffering from a mild depression in anticipation of the > disapproval of the Judge as expressed by style points. > > This sentence hypothesizes that the author of this rule values the amusement > of writing a self-referential rule more than accruing style points. > > This sentence, well cognizant of the theories and data proffered by all of > the previous sentences, suggests that this rule may merit negative style > point for so flagrantly and deliberately ignoring the theme. > > This is the last sentence of this rule. > > ------- END 143:5 ------- Validity: "This sentence explains how anthropomorphizing rules and sentences with intents and purposes helps to make self-referential sentences comprehensible," doesn't. INVALID. Style: A cute little bugger. I was considering giving you +1 Style point on the condition that you promise not to try again, but I've changed my mood since then. In short, prepare to meet the wrath of the Judge. This rule, and any other rule posted by Jared which has any self-referential sentences, shall be given -3 Style, the minimum amount. You asked for it! Transgressing against the theme was bad enough, but this travesty of self-referential sentences was completely uncalled for, and completely unoriginal. I know where it comes from and it's much better than this rubbish. Still, I might have winked over that, had you not also tried to force every other rule in the game to also obey that sill requirement, ruining everyone's enjoyment of the round as they had to cope with a requirement completely unrelated to the theme which has been done before. It would have been fine had you not made it a rule. Anyway, the worst part of it was that you weren't even trying to be stylish. Since the -3 was therefore not enough, I gave you this stinging reply to further motivate you to post rules with some redeeming qualities. I'll be looking forward to your next rule, no doubt. The Judge P.S. You may have noticed I've been handing out only negative style points. I intend to continue until we see a *good* rule, which I will probably give +3 style out of shock. -- Rule Date: 2000-07-25 03:59:13 GMT ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jared Sunshine wrote: > Somehow I managed to forget that I needed to vote for the FRC Poobah in this > rule, after reminding myself repeatedly. I'm resubmitting with the > appropriate clarification (after no doubt incurring additional negative > style points for my carelessness and bringing myself closer to > ineligibility) > > ------ BEGIN 143:7 ------ > The governance of the FRC for this round shall be a kakistocracy, or a rule > by the worst-qualified. > > Anyone with a negative total of style points who is not FRC Poobah is in the > future to be addressed by prefixing "His [or "Her", as appropriate] > Lordship, " to the person's name. Such persons shall be Lords. > > Anyone with a positive total of style points who is not FRC Poobah shall be a > Serf. > > Anyone who is not FRC Poobah with a total of style points equalling zero > shall be a Yeoman. > > At any moment, the FRC Poobah is the person with the most votes having been > cast in eir favor. If there is a tie regarding the largest number of votes, > then all persons possessing the largest number of votes shall be FRC > Poobahs. FRC Poobahs are in the future to be addressed by prefixing "His [or > "Her", as appropriate] Royal Poobahness, " to the person's name. > > The FRC Poobah outranks Lords, who outrank Yeomen, who outrank Serfs. > > (I cast a vote for Don Blaheta as FRC Poobah.) > > ------- END 143:7 ------- > Rule Date: 2000-07-25 04:51:28 GMT Validity: The Judge, in his great mercifulness, will interpret the obligatory titles as being required in fantasy rules, not the mailing list in general, which would have invalidated the rule. VALID. Style: So you thought I was going to punish you for resubmitting this excellent rule? Well I am, *Yeoman*. +1 style points. I have mixed feelings towards this rule, actually. *It is on theme, and clever, which provided the +3 Style the first time around. *On the other hand, this may spoil the rewards system inherent in style points, leading people to submit terrible rules. Some terrible rules are OK, but if you submit a game-ruining rule I shall probably Yeomanize you, giving you the worst of all worlds. *But then again, at least there are lots of people qualified to high positions this way. I note that the great advantage of being the Poohbah is that one can accumulate large numbers of positive style points without penalty. Note2: Style point adjustments shall be deemed to have occured when I hand them out, not when the rule is submitted. The Judge. -- Rule Date: 2000-07-25 16:12:15 GMT ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jesse Welton wrote: > 143:8 > >>>>> > > Except for rule restrictions and political actions taken by a rule > (for example, this rule votes for Anton Cox), all references to > governmental state must be made in the context existing immediately > prior to the rule in which the reference is made. The results of > actions taken by a rule (for example, this rule votes again for Anton > Cox) take effect immediately following the rule. > > A rule may vote for Poobah no more times than the number of Poobahs > currently eligible. For example, as there are currently three > eligible Poobahs (His Royal Poobahness Wizard Christian, His Royal > Poobahness Jared Sunshine, and His Royal Poobahness Don Blaheta), this > rule may vote as many as three times. However, it chooses not to. > > The single eligible player with the most style points shall be > referred to only by eir title, "The Brown Nose". If multiple eligible > players are tied for the most style points, then no player shall have > this title. > > >>>>> > > -- > Rule Date: 2000-07-25 16:15:19 GMT Validity: Using the same mercifulness which I gave to the last rule, I pronounce this rule also VALID. Style: I give you +2 Style, one for each loophole plugged, especially the second one. You are "The Brown Nose". We have titles galore, which is good, but we also need some duties, powers, priviliges, etc. Maybe if you're feeling particularly creative we could have Checks and Balances, separated powers, and all those other things that make this subject so juicy. The Judge. -- Rule Date: 2000-07-25 16:34:06 GMT ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Luk Vandelaer wrote: > ---- 143:9 ---- > > This rules votes for The Brown Nose. > > From now on, every rule must place one eligible player in a ministry, if there are > eligible players not in a ministry. The Brown Nose can not be placed in a ministry. When > someone becomes The Brown Nose, e will be expelled from the ministry e belongs to. > > A player can be in at most 1 ministry of the existing 3 ministries. > > The first rule a player submit after being assigned to a ministry, > needs to include a restriction or privilege for the players in that ministry. > > I place hereby Jared Sunshine into the ministry of Internal Affairs. > > ---- 143:9 ---- > > Luk Vandelaer > > -- > Rule Date: 2000-07-26 07:50:13 GMT Judgement: INVALID. This rule does not place a vote for Poohbah. Style: +1. Too bad it was INVALID. But whoever heard of a serf having a ministry? Discriminating against The Brown Nose is good in a kakistocracy, but we also need some class distinctions between Poohbah/Lord/Yeoman/Serf, besides the obligatory titles. Ministries are a good idea, although we need more than just that. Anyway, congratulations on your rule, serf. ****** We've had a lot of INVALID rules lately. We have only five explicit restrictions. Three of them are just titular restrictions, and two specify how to vote for Poohbah. Surely this round has not become *that* difficult, has it? Vote for one player for Poohbah and refer to His Royal Poohbahness Anton Cox, His Lordship The Wizard, and The Brown Nose by their proper titles. Is that too hard? The Judge -- Rule Date: 2000-07-26 16:53:05 GMT ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (later:) Luk Vandelaer wrote: > Aron Wall wrote: > > > > Luk Vandelaer wrote: > > > > > ---- 143:9 ---- > > > > > > This rules votes for The Brown Nose. > > > > > > From now on, every rule must place one eligible player in a ministry, if t here are > > > eligible players not in a ministry. The Brown Nose can not be placed in a ministry. When > > > someone becomes The Brown Nose, e will be expelled from the ministry e bel ongs to. > > > > > > A player can be in at most 1 ministry of the existing 3 ministries. > > > > > > The first rule a player submit after being assigned to a ministry, > > > needs to include a restriction or privilege for the players in that minist ry. > > > > > > I place hereby Jared Sunshine into the ministry of Internal Affairs. > > > > > > ---- 143:9 ---- > > > > > > Luk Vandelaer > > > > > > -- > > > Rule Date: 2000-07-26 07:50:13 GMT > > > > Judgement: INVALID. This rule does not place a vote for Poohbah. > > > > Isn't the first sentence in the rule correct for a vote ? > > I use exactly the same phrase as in rule 134:2, except with another name, > or only his title as I'm forced to do by 143:8. > > Luk You are entirely correct. Something happened between my eyes and my brain, and therefore I change the Judgement of this rule to VALID. The Judge. -- Rule Date: 2000-07-27 15:57:29 GMT ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Jared Sunshine wrote: > ------ BEGIN 143:10 ------ > In order to ensure that the present kakistocracy is not overthrown by a > revolt of the numerous Yeomen, a Parliament is hereby established to advise > the FRC Poobah: > > The House of Lords to be composed of all Lords, > > And, The House of Commons, to be composed of all Yeomen. > > It shall be the duty of all members of the House of Lords to oversee the > actions of the House of Commons. Therefore, any Lord making a posting (in > the future) must make reference to a rule posted by a person who is a Yeoman, > unless there are at that time no Yeomen. > > It shall be the duty of all members of the House of Commons to allow > expenditures by the Poobahship. Therefore, any Yeoman making a posting (in > the future) must in it grant the Poobahship a non-negative integral number X > of franconians (the coinage of the realm), where X < 25. This is the only > manner in which franconians may (in the future) be granted to the > Poobahship. A running total should be kept of the number of franconians > granted the Poobahship, to be called the Treasury. > > Any rule posted by a FRC Poobah (in the future) must declare the use of Y > franconians, where Y is equal to the number or words in the rule, excepting > the words in the sentence declaring the use of franconians. Y cannot be > larger than the number of franconians in the Treasury. > > Franconians declared used in the above manner are subtracted from the total > available in the Treasury. > > No person other than a FRC Poobah may use franconians. > > The Treasury presently consists of 50 franconians. > > I cast a vote for Wizard Christian as FRC Poobah. > > ------- END 143:10 ------- This rule is INVALID becsuse of the last line, which should read "I cast a vote for *His Lordship* Wizard Christian as FRC Poohbah". Style: Parliament is a very good idea, and I want to see that part of this rule instituted in another rule. But everything else in this rule is kind of boring, so I give you 0 style for this rule. Wasn't Parliament as a whole supposed to be the tax-raising authority, not the individual Yeoman. If anyone can make Parliament vote on things in a good way, I'd reward them, but I don't see how. I suppose Parliament could pass laws too, but again I don't see a good way of doing that within the Fantasy Rule format. No doubt some clever players can circumvent these problems... In short, the things in this rule have potential, but they need a much more creative implementation. And I can hardly look kindly on this continual INVALIDITY that can only mean carelessness given the lightness of our restrictions. The Judge. -- Rule Date: 2000-07-27 00:33:55 GMT ---------------------------------------------------------------------- (later:) Anton Cox wrote: > Ho hum. It is beginning to look as though I am on a one-man crusade > against the judges of the FRC, but I have yet another query. This one > is (even?) more open to debate however. > > In 143:7, where the introduction of titles occurs, it says that Lords > and Poohbahs are "to be addressed by" their respective titles. > However, in 143:8, it says that The Brown nose is to be "referred to" > by that title. > > At the time I wondered if this was a subtle dig by Jesse at a > perceived miswording of 143:7. For many of our rules are *about* other > players - but very few are actually *addressed* to them. I assumed > that Jesse was playing on this to allow us to deal with certain future > eventualities > (for under the judge's interpretation there are > occasions when there are players of whom one cannot speak!). I am aware of this. > ... > > Now the Judge is interpreting "to be addressed by" as synonymous with > "referred to" (which I must confess to finding a little dubious). I am > sure that this is what Jared intended - but intent has never been much > favoured by the FRC, and certainly the interpretation I propose seems > to be reasonable enough to let 143:10 pass... I note that since I have now ruled 143:9 VALID, 143:10 must be INVALID, and so there are no precedents any longer for the addressed/referred to issue. Hmmm. What do other people think about this issue? The Judge. -- Rule Date: 2000-07-27 16:07:04 GMT ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Welcome! Unfortunately the rule you have submitted is inconsistant with the regular ordinances on several points, and so I must declare it INVALID. david moses fruchter wrote: > ---begin rule 143:11--- > Just as there can be no yin without yang, no matter without space, no > peaches without cream, there can be no government without those who resist > governance. Otherwise it's a cooperative, not a government. > > Henceforth let any player (including this Rule's humble submitter) who > becomes newly eligible by submitting their first valid rule this round be > pronounced a Revolutionary, and exempt from the following provisions of the > valid rules to date: First problem. All players, even if they haven't submitted a rule, are eligible to play. In what sense, then, do they become newly eligible? > 1. Revolutionaries rarely vote -- it only encourages the violent > delusions of those who consider themselves governors. Hence, > Revolutionaries are exempt from Rule 143.1. Second Problem. Making exceptions to previous rules is a no no. Fantasy Rules are not like a normal body of law, in which laws can be repealed by later laws. Instead, future rules must be consistant with past rules, and thus I must declare any rule which makes an "exception" to a previous rule INVALID. > > 2. On the other hand, Revolutionaries are bold surrealists, so if they > feel like it they might well vote for a pig for president, or a ficus tree > (http://www.ficus2000.com/). Hence, Revolutionaries are exempt from Rule > 143:2 Again. > -- they are encouraged, in fact, to think of the most absurd > possible candidates and vote for them. The kakistocracy, being the > official component of the system of government, will naturally fail to > recognize these votes. Again, since it is determined how legal votes are added up. > That's its job. > > 3. Revolutionaries do not fit into heirarchical class > structures. Revolutionaries do not burden themselves with any of the > titles of class, nor do they willingly take any place in a linear system > of ranking. Even if Revolutionaries are voted for, they may not be FRC > Poohbah, exempting them from that provision of Rule 143:7. Again. > Neither is > there any burden on eligible players or the Judge to refer to > Revolutionaries by the style point titles outlined in Rule 143:7. Again. > Speaking of style, Revolutionaries embrace their personal aesthetic -- > they care very little about what any external arbiters might think of > their "style" (no offense there, yer onner.) In fact, they care so little > about their style points that they may freely give them away -- > Revolutionaries may, as part of their posted rule, assign any of their > existing style points (positive or negative) to any other eligible player. Third Problem. Fantasy Rules have no effect on play except as provided for by the regular ordinances. Giving and taking style points is not one of those things. The only way FR's can affect style points is by giving the Judge the oppertunity to assign -3 to 3 style points to them. > Going along with the embrace of personal style, any Rule which would cause > its submitter to be pronounced a Revolutionary if Judged valid must also > specify that Revolutionary's underground code name. Mine is "MC Home > Skillet". > No comment. > > However, the life of a Revolutionary is not all ease and lack of > restriction. As an integral component of the system of government, > Revolutionaries have important work to do. Therefore, any Rule submitted > by a Revolutionary (including the Rule which causes them to be pronounced > such) must find a valid way to contravene a previously existing rule. > > And last, but not least, YOU TOO could be a revolutionary! Anyone > could! A bold declaration of principle, and there you are. Therefore, > any previously eligible players may become a Revolutionary by submitting a > valid Rule which abides by the above restrictions, and ALSO contains a bold > declaration of principle. > ---end rule 143:11--- > -- > Rule Date: 2000-07-27 10:20:15 GMT Judgement: INVALID Style: -1 for Wickedness and Rebellion and Culpable Ignorence of The Regular Ordinances, -1 as a traditional bonus to someone's first rule ever (normally this bonus is positive, but I mean to secure His Lordship's position in the kakistocracy, so take it as a favor). The Judge -- Rule Date: 2000-07-27 16:26:49 GMT ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Luk Vandelaer wrote: > ---- 143:12 Start ---- > > A Poohbah can appoint a lord as minister. Each ministry has only 1 minister. > The last appointed minister is the minister in the parliament. The previous minister > is expelled from the ministry. > > A member of the parliament (concisting of the 3 ministers and the Poohbah or Poohbahs) > must describe a privilege for parliament members in his rules, and give it a name. > > All the members of the parliament have then 36 hours to cast 1 vote in favor or against > this priviledge, by sending their vote to the mailing list. > > When the majority of the votes was in favor, the privilege takes effect > after the 36 hours period, or when all votes where cast, whichever comes first. > > Parliament members that become ineligible, are removed from the parliament at the same moment. > > This rules votes for His Lordship The Wizard, Christian R. Leonhard as Poohbah, and places him > in the ministry of Internal Affairs. > > ---- 143:12 End ---- > > Luk Vandelaer > > -- > Rule Date: 2000-07-31 14:16:31 GMT You did see that I made 134:9 VALID, didn't you? It already described ministries. Yet this rule is still VALID, for it does not contradict the previous information. Style: Well, I got a parliament, but one consisting of ministers. I liked the House of Lords/House of Commons idea better. I can't see the reason for the first sentence given 134:9's VALIDITY. I guess I'll let the positive and negative points balance each other out, and give this rule 0 Style. The Judge -- Rule Date: 2000-07-31 14:57:43 GMT