From: owner-frc-digest To: frc-digest@nvg.unit.no Subject: frc-digest V1 #104 Reply-To: frc Errors-To: owner-frc-digest Precedence: bulk frc-digest Thursday, 9 February 1995 Volume 01 : Number 104 Re: rule 31:12, syllables Re: last post Re: rule 31:12, syllables Re: rule 31:12, syllables Re: 31:13 On syllable counts and alliteration Re: last post Re: rule 31:12, syllables Re: rule 31:12, syllables On syllables and alliteration Re: On syllables Judgement 31:13 Rule 31:14 31:14, I hope not 31:14 Judgements 31:14-15 End of day 4 ---------------------------------------------------------------------- From: "Michael John Haisma" Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 20:49:35 -0500 Subject: Re: rule 31:12, syllables After speaking to my roomate (a Japanese native) and several other native speakers, I'm still not sure what to say. Again, technically, all these words violate the number of syllables, however, according to my roomate, this kind of stretch is possible because it still sounds right. As for the double ii sound as in atarashii specifically, everyone said that, for haiku, it could go either way. Part of this is because the meter rules Japanese use when writing haiku are fairly relaxed, and the poems are mainly to convey imagery. Without doubt, my poetry isn't very good. Also, if the rules for judging syllables as Jeremy outlined are utilized, I would like to add that (I believe rule 31:5) subarashii also violates this. Perhaps invalidating all of the Japanese would do the trick! :) As to Jeremy's question about akachan/desu, I would contend that either: (1) both desu and chan are single-syllables according to our system or (2) both are desu and chan are double-syllables. Even though the "u" sound is at most times silent, that is really only a matter of dialect. Many uses of "desu" make the full "su" sound, and which are "silent" and which are "pronounced" vary from speaker to speaker, and word to word. This pronounciation can also change according to the context of the conversation, the politeness level, and a myriad of other factors. For example, take the case of someone saying "Atsui desu" (it's hot). In my experience, the "u" is usually silent on this when phrased in this manner, but as a question "atsui desu?" (is it hot?) usually gets the full pronounciation. Whew! This is the kind of thing I have seen linguists argue over for months! To me, the meter is close enough to fit the 5-7-5 rule. As a side note, my roomate spent a while explaining to me that for the last two lines, the meter can also be a syllable longer on each. I forgot the word for it, but he said that basically the haiku could go either way and it was up to the teacher (read:judge) to decide whether that particular case is okay. I would sincerely like to apologise to everyone, especially our wizard judge, for the great upheaval this has caused, and I promise I will _never_ create another rule promoting the use of a language which everyone else does not also speak. Apologetically, Mike - -- Michael J. Haisma | Any questions, comments, or flames? email: mjhaisma@eos.ncsu.edu | Please send email to president@whitehouse.gov ------------------------------ From: "Michael John Haisma" Date: Wed, 8 Feb 1995 21:57:34 -0500 Subject: Re: last post After asking ANOTHER native speaker, I don't feel as firmly convinced that the line "atarashii akachan" would be allowed in standard haiku. I'm led to believe that the allowances for the change in meter in "real" haiku are only to let the writer use an extra syllable on the second line, so that forms like 5-8-5 or even 5-6-5 would be allowed. Honestly, I do _not understand the rules used for writing haiku. It seems some exceptions are allowed, while others are not. I have definitely come to the conclusion that when counting the syllables, Japanese are very strict in formal haiku, and "atarashii akachan", having, technically, 9 moras, would not be an acceptable form. Also, the rule which started all this "Japanese jargon" would be unacceptable because it uses 7 moras on the last line with subarashii desu. As a side note, I discovered that Japanese _never_ use desu, da, or -masu forms when writing haiku, as (a) they "waste" syllables, and (b) the style of writing used in haiku is not consistent with these forms. Also, the "embedded consonants" like in yukkuri or seppuku would count 4 syllables, but again they would probably be allowed in a haiku because of the 5-8-5 form, and not (as I previously thought) because they "sound" shorter than they are. Again, I apologise for wasting everybody's time and bandwidth on this subject. I simply misunderstood the explanation of why the longer meter was acceptable haiku. Please invalidate all my rules (if you wish), as they all violate the 5-7-5 restriction, as far as I can tell. Mike p.s. Waggie: My (very limited) knowledge of Japanese comes only from my diligent study and my persoanl relationships with native speakers. I am trying to obtain a minor in Japanese, and plan to spend a month or two in Osaka this summer on a "summer language program" scholarship. Also, I am working in coordination with the North Carolina Japan Center to get them on the net with a WWW site based mainly on local Japan-related issues. - -- Michael J. Haisma | Any questions, comments, or flames? email: mjhaisma@eos.ncsu.edu | Please send email to president@whitehouse.gov ------------------------------ From: Dave Wagner Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 00:06:04 -0500 Subject: Re: rule 31:12, syllables Mike sez... !For example, take the !case of someone saying "Atsui desu" (it's hot). In my experience, the "u" is !usually silent on this when phrased in this manner, but as a question "atsui !desu?" (is it hot?) usually gets the full pronounciation. Isn't the interrogative form "atsui desu-ka?"? !I would sincerely like to apologise to everyone, especially our wizard judge, !for the great upheaval this has caused, and I promise I will _never_ create !another rule promoting the use of a language which everyone else does not also !speak. Don't forget, you were just punting a ball I had tossed to you, so I bear partial responsibility for this fracas. However, I'm not apologizing. This is fun! !Apologetically, !Mike Not, Waggie ------------------------------ From: "Michael John Haisma" Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 01:37:57 -0500 Subject: Re: rule 31:12, syllables On Feb 9, 12:06am, Dave Wagner wrote: > Subject: Re: rule 31:12, syllables > Mike sez... > > !For example, take the > !case of someone saying "Atsui desu" (it's hot). In my experience, the "u" is > !usually silent on this when phrased in this manner, but as a question "atsui > !desu?" (is it hot?) usually gets the full pronounciation. > > Isn't the interrogative form "atsui desu-ka?"? The interrogative form _is_ "atsui desu ka?", but also, with slightly different intonation, "atsui desu?". The intonation on the latter is rising on the last syllable, whereas the intonation on the former is (usually) even, sometimes rising. Also again I repeat that the latter form, I guess because of the intonation (who knows?) stresses the last syllable a little more so that usually it isn't silent. > > Not, > Waggie >-- End of excerpt from Dave Wagner It _is_ fun, but I wouldn't want to be our wizard judge! :) Mike - -- Michael J. Haisma | Any questions, comments, or flames? email: mjhaisma@eos.ncsu.edu | Please send email to president@whitehouse.gov ------------------------------ From: blahedo@quincy.edu (Don Blaheta) Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 01:04:02 -0600 (CST) Subject: Re: 31:13 The Wizard wrote: > I've delayed judgement of 31:13 until tomorrow, pending clarification I've > asked Vanyel for. Thus the game status is the same as yesterday, so no > summary today. I've already mailed him personally, but just to be clear: what I *thought* was a fairly clear restriction can be found in the third line "Address with honour"--everyone must use an address of honour, eg "honourable", "mighty", etc. Real sneaky of me, I thought, cutting into everybody's syllable count like that. :) > Yours, Vanyel =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Don Blaheta | GAT d?(--) H+ s-:- g-(+) p?>! !au a-- w+ v+ C++(+++) USL blahedo@quincy.edu| !3 E--- N++ K- W--- M++ !v -po+ Y+ t++>+++ 5- jx R(+) G+ dblaheta@aol.com | tv-- b+++ D--- B-- e(*)(+>+++) u++ h(*) f+ r-- n---- !y* =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-+-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ------------------------------ From: Stein.Kulseth@TF.telenor.telemax.no Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 09:15:22 +0100 Subject: On syllable counts and alliteration I checked up on the definition of alliteration yesterday evening, and one reference gave 'words starting with equal consonants or equal or unequal vowels', so Vanyel's 31:13 should be OK on this point (had the subject been norse poetry rather than haiku, he would probably have gained a derogatory nickname though, for they did prefer unequal vowel alliteration, and judged each others shortcomings harshly). Regarding syllable counts, I have two points to make, point 1: It is true that haiku is not alwayd in 5+7+5 syllable yet our haiku restrictions must be, as this is clearly stated in 30:1 however, point 2: I wouldn't feel very much at ease discussing syllable counts in a language I don't know. But I know how I pronounce the few Japanese words I know, and can count the syllables in *my* pronounciation. So when I say fi. 'seppuku' then this is 3 syllables, regardless of whether it would be 3 syllables if a native Japanese said it. I think it would be best if we judge these rules after the syllable count of the author's pronounciation. (and there is a precedent here, in rule 31:3, the Wizard allowed for a regional pronounciation of 'requires' that uses 3 syllables instead of the Wizard's dictionary's 2.) - -- Stein stein.kulseth@tf.telenor.no G=Stein;S=Kulseth;O=TF;P=telenor;A=telemax;C=no; http://www.nta.no/brukere/stein ------------------------------ From: Jeremy D Selengut Date: Thu, 09 Feb 1995 09:17:02 EST Subject: Re: last post Mike, Let's not lose sight of the forest for the trees here. The issue is _NOT_ what is the proper form for Haiku, this FRC round has not required us to write Japanese-style haiku's. It _DOES_ require us to write our restrictions in 5-7-5 syllabic form. ANY self-consistent definition of Japanese syllables will do whether or not it would be appropriate for traditional Japanese poetry! - - Jeremy ------------------------------ From: Jeremy D Selengut Date: Thu, 09 Feb 1995 09:19:58 EST Subject: Re: rule 31:12, syllables Waggie sez: > However, I'm not apologizing. > This is fun! I agree, no apologies necessary (not even to the Judge, judging is always a tough job!) Not only is this fun, but it's somewhat educational. - - Jeremy ------------------------------ From: Stephen Turner Date: Thu, 9 Feb 95 14:56:19 GMT Subject: Re: rule 31:12, syllables - -> - -> I agree, no apologies necessary (not even to the Judge, judging is always - -> a tough job!) Not only is this fun, but it's somewhat educational. - -> Sure thing. It's certainly the most educational round I've ever played. And no apologies are necessary. I'm reconsidering Japanese syllables. I have read all the mail on the subject and I hope to have an answer soon. - -- Stephen R. E. Turner Stochastic Networks Group, Statistical Laboratory, University of Cambridge e-mail: sret1@cam.ac.uk WWW: http://www.statslab.cam.ac.uk/~sret1/home.html "Never go to sea with two chronometers; take one or three." (Anon.) ------------------------------ From: Stephen Turner Date: Thu, 9 Feb 95 15:19:40 GMT Subject: On syllables and alliteration After reading all of the posts on the subject of syllables, I have come to the following conclusions for the purpose of this round. The number of syllables in a Japanese word will be considered to be equal to the number of vowels. Extra consonant syllables/characters/modifiers/ whatever-they-ares will not count, and neither will vowels be silent or elided, or form diphthongs. Nevertheless, rules 31:5 and 31:12 will stand. 31:5 is past the time for challenge anyway, but I think to be fair to 31:12, the lenience I showed to 31:3 and (unwittingly) 31:5 should be applied to it. Of course, I can't stop any member calling a vote on it, but it shouldn't be difficult to obey anyway, as Vanyel demonstrated in 31:13. Now that I have sent this message, I shall apply it strictly (unless someone persuades me to change my mind...), and I may be inclined to be stricter on English syllables than I was at 31:3 as well. As for alliteration, Chambers dictionary gives the following: "The recurrence of the same initial sound (not necessarily letter) in words in close succession, as 'Sing a Song of Sixpence': head-rhyme -- the characteristic structure of versification of O.E. and other Gmc. languages, each line have three accented syllables (two in the first half) with the same initial consonant, or with different initial vowels." So I shall allow identical consonant sounds, or equal or unequal vowels, at the start of words in close proximity. I hope that clears these issues up, and that this can be the last word on these subjects. (Though somehow I fear it might not be!). Yours, - -- The Wizard, Stochastic Networks Group, Statistical Laboratory, University of Cambridge e-mail: sret1@cam.ac.uk WWW: http://www.statslab.cam.ac.uk/~sret1/home.html "Never go to sea with two chronometers; take one or three." (Anon.) ------------------------------ From: Stephen Turner Date: Thu, 9 Feb 95 15:27:18 GMT Subject: Re: On syllables OK, so it wasn't the last word. One more exception. Words which occur in Chambers dictionary (1988), i.e. Japanese words that have been imported into English, can have the number of syllables that they would have in English. So Samurai can have three, and bonsai two. - -- Stephen R. E. Turner Stochastic Networks Group, Statistical Laboratory, University of Cambridge e-mail: sret1@cam.ac.uk WWW: http://www.statslab.cam.ac.uk/~sret1/home.html "Never go to sea with two chronometers; take one or three." (Anon.) ------------------------------ From: Stephen Turner Date: Thu, 9 Feb 95 15:42:10 GMT Subject: Judgement 31:13 Sorry this one took so long to turn round. I hope we can get on with the game now. =========================================================================== Rule 31:13 (Vanyel) We-08-Feb-95 07:35 VALID (-2 SP) >>>>> All are growing as Honourable Samourai. Address with honour. Please! >>>>> Judgement: The only problem I have with this is whether "growing" is enough to symbolise spring if it's people growing, but I think I have to give it the benefit of the doubt. Style points: This rule squeezes through so many of the constraints in such a contrived way (as Vanyel admitted in his post). Also the restriction is rather strange (and why did he not realise it was easy to satisfy, having success- fully made 31:12 look ridiculous?). =========================================================================== FRC round 31 - ------------ Start of round: Mo-06-Feb-95 09:00 (all times GMT) Theme: Haiku Judge: Stephen (Ronald won round 30 but was unable to judge round 31) The Wizard: Stephen Rules judged so far: 13 (12 valid, 1 invalid) Style points awarded: +3.5 (+0.269 per rule) Summary of eligibilities and style points: Player (rules) Eligible until Style points - -------------- ------------------ ------------ Vanyel (1 + 0) We-15-Feb-95 07:35 -2 Mike (2 + 1) Tu-14-Feb-95 18:13 -2 Jeremy (3 + 0) Tu-14-Feb-95 16:16 +3.5 Stein (3 + 0) Tu-14-Feb-95 08:39 +2 Bruce (1 + 0) Mo-13-Feb-95 22:30 +2 Waggie (1 + 0) Mo-13-Feb-95 20:03 -1 Ronald (1 + 0) Mo-13-Feb-95 10:30 +1 Everyone else (0 + 0) Mo-13-Feb-95 09:00 0 - -- Stephen R. E. Turner Stochastic Networks Group, Statistical Laboratory, University of Cambridge e-mail: sret1@cam.ac.uk WWW: http://www.statslab.cam.ac.uk/~sret1/home.html "Never go to sea with two chronometers; take one or three." (Anon.) ------------------------------ From: "Michael John Haisma" Date: Thu, 9 Feb 1995 12:02:52 -0500 Subject: Rule 31:14 >>>> Drugs intoxicate Summer-sama, so seasons must name spirits, please. >>>> Checklist :-) - --------- 1) Yup (I think) 2) Only one that I can see:this is intended to make the haiku more like traditional haiku, in that many refer to spirits (kami, ki, etc) in typical Buddhist fashion. 3) Has season there 4) "summer-sama, so seasons" ? 5) -sama is a Japanese honorific 6) intoxication theme, also summer-sama personifies summer 7) Again, -sama 8) I hope summer is the right one 9) Drugs do, in fact, intoxicate. 11) Only 1 Japanese word! :) 12) Got that (I personally like the rule, it takes up one more syllable that would otherwise be usefully occupied with a different constraint I couln't manage. 13) As I stated before, "-sama" is an honorific sorta like saying "Lord" or "Sir" or something to that effect. Mike 9 - -- Michael J. Haisma | Any questions, comments, or flames? email: mjhaisma@eos.ncsu.edu | Please send email to president@whitehouse.gov ------------------------------ From: Gareth McCaughan Date: Thu, 9 Feb 95 17:00:29 GMT Subject: 31:14, I hope - ---------- To "speak of the real world" is hard For such an inadequate bard When the verse-form I need Has only, I read, So few syllables. Be on your guard! <--- Advice, not restriction :-) as a go master surrounds stones subtly to win, frame haiku with verse If limerick-cum-haiku seems strange, Reflect that at least I arrange To give rest to your mind; Perhaps then you'll find That it's quite an agreeable change. (I aim to please.) - ---------- Er, I hope it counts as speaking of the real world to mention my own inadequacy as a poet and my concern for your mental well-being. I take Stein's rule to mean that rules should not be entirely concerned with the game itself. If my interpretation of my own rule is of any relevance, by the way, I think "verse" implies metre but not rhyme. So Shakespeare would be OK but [most of] Eliot would not. Others may disagree, and it's only the WJ's opinion that counts. - -- Gareth McCaughan Dept. of Pure Mathematics & Mathematical Statistics, gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk Cambridge University, England. [Research student] ------------------------------ From: Gareth McCaughan Date: Thu, 9 Feb 95 17:21:39 GMT Subject: not 31:14 The Wizard Judge has just pointed out to me that I somehow completely failed to read 31:8. So no seasons. >sigh< - -- Gareth McCaughan Dept. of Pure Mathematics & Mathematical Statistics, gjm11@cus.cam.ac.uk Cambridge University, England. [Research student] ------------------------------ From: Stephen Turner Date: Thu, 9 Feb 95 17:46:42 GMT Subject: Judgements 31:14-15 Some invalid rules at last! :) Note: I am of the school that believes that invalid rules vanish and play no further part in the game. In particular, the correct season for 31:16 is the same as it was for 31:14. =========================================================================== Rule 31:14 (Gareth) Th-09-Feb-95 17:00 INVALID (0 SP) >>>>> To "speak of the real world" is hard For such an inadequate bard When the verse-form I need Has only, I read, So few syllables. Be on your guard! as a go master surrounds stones subtly to win, frame haiku with verse If limerick-cum-haiku seems strange, Reflect that at least I arrange To give rest to your mind; Perhaps then you'll find That it's quite an agreeable change. (I aim to please.) >>>>> Judgement: It's doubtful whether this obeys 31:13. (Does comparing the players to go masters count as addressing them with honour? I don't know). Also, I'm not In any case, I'm not convinced it 'end[s] with "please!"' (31:12): look carefully at the position of the quote marks. In any case, it violates 31:8, because no seasons are mentioned or alluded to. Style points: A reasonable, if not terribly exacting, constraint, but rather spoilt by the points referred to above. =========================================================================== Rule 31:15 (Mike) Th-09-Feb-95 17:02 INVALID (-0.5 SP) >>>>> Drugs intoxicate Summer-sama, so seasons must name spirits, please. >>>>> Supplied translation: "-sama" is an honorific sorta like saying "Lord" or "Sir" or something. Judgement: Doesn't obey 31:12 (see previous judgement). Also, doesn't appear to obey itself, unless I've misunderstood "-sama". Style points: I appreciate the attempt to make it more like haiku, but I don't fancy having to judge Buddhist spirits I haven't heard of. A selfish reason for deducting half a point, maybe, but there it is. =========================================================================== FRC round 31 - ------------ Start of round: Mo-06-Feb-95 09:00 (all times GMT) Theme: Haiku Judge: Stephen (Ronald won round 30 but was unable to judge round 31) The Wizard: Stephen Rules judged so far: 15 (12 valid, 3 invalid) Style points awarded: +3 (+0.200 per rule) Summary of eligibilities and style points: Player (rules) Eligible until Style points - -------------- ------------------ ------------ Vanyel (1 + 0) We-15-Feb-95 07:35 -2 Jeremy (3 + 0) Tu-14-Feb-95 16:16 +3.5 Stein (3 + 0) Tu-14-Feb-95 08:39 +2 Bruce (1 + 0) Mo-13-Feb-95 22:30 +2 Waggie (1 + 0) Mo-13-Feb-95 20:03 -1 Mike (2 + 2) Mo-13-Feb-95 18:13 -2.5 Ronald (1 + 0) Mo-13-Feb-95 10:30 +1 Gareth (0 + 1) Su-12-Feb-95 09:00 0 Everyone else (0 + 0) Mo-13-Feb-95 09:00 0 - -- The Wizard, Stochastic Networks Group, Statistical Laboratory, University of Cambridge e-mail: sret1@cam.ac.uk WWW: http://www.statslab.cam.ac.uk/~sret1/home.html "Never go to sea with two chronometers; take one or three." (Anon.) ------------------------------ From: Stephen Turner Date: Thu, 9 Feb 95 19:13:56 GMT Subject: End of day 4 Here is the current Fantasy round position For Oerjan's archives FRC round 31 - ------------ Start of round: Mo-06-Feb-95 09:00 (all times GMT) Theme: Haiku Judge: Stephen (Ronald won round 30 but was unable to judge round 31) The Wizard: Stephen Rules judged so far: 15 (12 valid, 3 invalid) Style points awarded: +3 (+0.200 per rule) Summary of eligibilities and style points: Player (rules) Eligible until Style points - -------------- ------------------ ------------ Vanyel (1 + 0) We-15-Feb-95 07:35 -2 Jeremy (3 + 0) Tu-14-Feb-95 16:16 +3.5 Stein (3 + 0) Tu-14-Feb-95 08:39 +2 Bruce (1 + 0) Mo-13-Feb-95 22:30 +2 Waggie (1 + 0) Mo-13-Feb-95 20:03 -1 Mike (2 + 1) Mo-13-Feb-95 18:13 -2.5 Ronald (1 + 0) Mo-13-Feb-95 10:30 +1 Gareth (0 + 1) Su-12-Feb-95 09:00 0 Everyone else (0 + 0) Mo-13-Feb-95 09:00 0 =========================================================================== Rule 31:1 (Ronald) Mo-06-Feb-95 10:30 VALID (+1 SP) >>>>> Each restriction to Five, seven, five syllables shall be restricted! >>>>>> Judgement: No problem. Style points: Right on theme. =========================================================================== Rule 31:2 (Stein) Mo-06-Feb-95 10:38 VALID (-0.5 SP) >>>>> Each F. R. C. rule shall contain one restriction and *only* one, too! >>>>> Judgement: Had you said "shall contain exactly one single restriction" or something, I would have had no trouble. As it is, you seem to have placed TWO restrictions on rules. Nevertheless, after some thought, I have judged this rule valid, because it is really a single restriction expressed in a compound sort of way. If you see what I mean. Style points: The right idea, but sailing rather too close to the wind. =========================================================================== Rule 31:3 (Jeremy) Mo-06-Feb-95 14:40 VALID (+1.5 SP) >>>>> Winter, Spring, Summer; Logic requires Autumn. Seasons must flow so. >>>>> Judgement: Requires can be 3 syllables (though my dictionary thinks it's 2) so the metre is OK. Does this rule contain a restriction? I think so, or at least it can be credibly interpreted to mean that the next rule must talk about autumn, which is enough. (I accept that the demands of the metre and style may force authors to be less precise in defining their conditions than usual). Style points: Much easier to judge stylistically. Very haiku-ish. =========================================================================== Rule 31:4 (Jeremy) Mo-06-Feb-95 16:29 VALID (+1 SP) >>>>> Alliteration; All future fantasy rules Must make use of it. >>>>>> Judgement: I'm prepared to consider other explanations of 31:3, e.g. that the next haiku that mentions a season must mention autumn (or winter perhaps). The restriction there isn't explicit enough to claim that this rule violates it. Style points: It's about time we had another angle on this round. This is an appropriate one because alliteration is primarily a device used in verse. =========================================================================== Rule 31:5 (Waggie) Mo-06-Feb-95 20:03 VALID (-1 SP) >>>>> Japanese jargon must be used in your haiku. Subarashi desu! >>>>> Supplied translation: "Subarashi desu!" means "It's wonderful!" Judgement: No problem. Style points: The Wizard does not know Japanese, and is now going to have to rely on the honesty of the players in translating for him. This makes him somewhat uncomfortable. Only the fact that using Japanese is indubitably haikuish (and the merciful example of the previous Wizard Judge at 30:7) prevented him from going lower. =========================================================================== Rule 31:6 (Stein) Mo-06-Feb-95 20:31 VALID (+2 SP) >>>>> hereon imageless rules will freeze to death in a silent seppuku >>>>> Supplied translation: "seppuku" is the same as "hara-kiri", viz. ritual suicide. Judgement: No problem. Style points: High credit here for responding so promptly to Waggie's challenge as well as being stylistically accurate (so far as I can tell). =========================================================================== Rule 31:7 (Mike) Mo-06-Feb-95 22:21 VALID (0 SP) >>>>> kotira kara yukkuri jiji mitai nihongo de mo >>>>> Supplied translation: From this point on, like an old man, all (will be) in Japanese. Judgement: I suppose it's OK. I don't know enough Japanese to know. Style points: This rule deserves at once high positive points for being the "most spectacular debut rule ever" (as Stein said) and high negative points for attempting (albeit inadvertently) to make the round nigh on unjudgeable, at least by me. So I've settled on zero :) You might have got negative if it wasn't at least partly Waggie's fault. =========================================================================== Rule 31:8 (Bruce) Mo-06-Feb-95 22:30 VALID (+2 SP) >>>>> As the unfolding of budding bonsai leaves, must always come seasons. >>>>> Judgement: Mike has assured me in a 'talk' conversation that 31:7 doesn't have to mean exactly what he said in his translation. The force of it could just be that all rules have to have some Japanese in them, in which case it says little more than 31:5. "Bonsai" is enough to satisfy this. Style points: Well done for imposing the traditional seasonal images, and for using a Japanese jargon word that is now also an English word. =========================================================================== Rule 31:9 (Stein) Tu-07-Feb-95 08:39 VALID (+0.5 SP) >>>>> a warm gentle wind truth speaks to nanbitomo: speak of the real world >>>>> Supplied translation: "nanbitomo" means "all" or "everyone". Judgement: No problem. Style points: A cunning way round 31:7, though whether it would have been successful or not is doubtful. Other than that, it says little more than 31:8. =========================================================================== Rule 31:10 (Mike) Tu-07-Feb-95 09:48 INVALID (-1 SP) >>>>> Hontoo ni, huyu kagi kaketa. Eego kaki kinjiru. >>>>> Supplied translation: Truly, winter has locked the key(lock). English writing is forbidden. Judgement: 31:3 says "Seasons must flow so". I take this to mean that the seasonal allusions must occur in the correct order of the seasons. It's not time for winter yet. Style points: Good alliteration, but another attempt to give The Wizard Judge extra work. =========================================================================== Rule 31:11 (Jeremy) Tu-07-Feb-95 16:16 VALID (+1 SP) >>>>> ODE ON THE 1994 SEASON When the brown leaves fell There stood, on empty infield, Silent samurai. Where is our yakyu? Where is his bokutuo? Communication: Its absence has brought this chill. Why can't compromise win out? Each player may post No greater than two haiku All in Japanese. >>>>> Supplied translation: "yakyu" means, literally, "field-ball", i.e. "baseball"; "bokutuo" means "wooden sword", i.e. "baseball bat". Judgement: No problems. Style points: A good poem. I'm beginning to feel I'm the only one that doesn't know Japanese here! The only problems I have stylistically are that the restriction is rather weak (though thankyou for trying!) and that it doesn't seem to have much to do with the rest of the poem. =========================================================================== Rule 31:12 (Mike) Tu-07-Feb-95 18:13 VALID (-1 SP) >>>>> In truth,Winter's born; atarashii akachan, you must end with "please!" >>>>> Supplied translation: "Atarashii akachan" means "new infant". Judgement: No problems. Style points: Another one where the imagery doesn't appear to have much to do with the restriction. Also rather a strange constaint. =========================================================================== The Wizard Judge's ruling on syllables: The number of syllables in a Japanese word will be considered to be equal to the number of vowels. Extra consonant syllables/characters/modifiers/ whatever-they-ares will not count, and neither will vowels be silent or elided, or form diphthongs. Nevertheless, rules 31:5 and 31:12 will stand. 31:5 is past the time for challenge anyway, but I think to be fair to 31:12, the lenience I showed to 31:3 and (unwittingly) 31:5 should be applied to it. One more exception. Words which occur in Chambers dictionary (1988), i.e. Japanese words that have been imported into English, can have the number of syllables that they would have in English. So Samurai can have three, and bonsai two. Now that I have sent this message, I shall apply it strictly (unless someone persuades me to change my mind...), and I may be inclined to be stricter on English syllables than I was at 31:3 as well. =========================================================================== Rule 31:13 (Vanyel) We-08-Feb-95 07:35 VALID (-2 SP) >>>>> All are growing as Honourable Samourai. Address with honour. Please! >>>>> Judgement: The only problem I have with this is whether "growing" is enough to symbolise spring if it's people growing, but I think I have to give it the benefit of the doubt. Style points: This rule squeezes through so many of the constraints in such a contrived way (as Vanyel admitted in his post). Also the restriction is rather strange (and why did he not realise it was easy to satisfy, having success- fully made 31:12 look ridiculous?). =========================================================================== Rule 31:14 (Gareth) Th-09-Feb-95 17:00 INVALID (0 SP) >>>>> To "speak of the real world" is hard For such an inadequate bard When the verse-form I need Has only, I read, So few syllables. Be on your guard! as a go master surrounds stones subtly to win, frame haiku with verse If limerick-cum-haiku seems strange, Reflect that at least I arrange To give rest to your mind; Perhaps then you'll find That it's quite an agreeable change. (I aim to please.) >>>>> Judgement: It's doubtful whether this obeys 31:13. (Does comparing the players to go masters count as addressing them with honour? I don't know). Also, I'm not In any case, I'm not convinced it 'end[s] with "please!"' (31:12): look carefully at the position of the quote marks. In any case, it violates 31:8, because no seasons are mentioned or alluded to. Style points: A reasonable, if not terribly exacting, constraint, but rather spoilt by the points referred to above. =========================================================================== Rule 31:15 (Mike) Th-09-Feb-95 17:02 INVALID (-0.5 SP) >>>>> Drugs intoxicate Summer-sama, so seasons must name spirits, please. >>>>> Supplied translation: "-sama" is an honorific sorta like saying "Lord" or "Sir" or something. Judgement: Doesn't obey 31:12 (see previous judgement). Also, doesn't appear to obey itself, unless I've misunderstood "-sama". Style points: I appreciate the attempt to make it more like haiku, but I don't fancy having to judge Buddhist spirits I haven't heard of. A selfish reason for deducting half a point, maybe, but there it is. =========================================================================== - -- The Wizard, Stochastic Networks Group, Statistical Laboratory, University of Cambridge e-mail: sret1@cam.ac.uk WWW: http://www.statslab.cam.ac.uk/~sret1/home.html "Never go to sea with two chronometers; take one or three." (Anon.) ------------------------------ End of frc-digest V1 #104 *************************